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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Tevez Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Tevez Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Footballer rape trial: Ched Evans jailed five years, Clayton McDonald cleared

Footballer Ched Evans has been jailed for five years for raping a 19-year-old woman, while another player, Clayton McDonald, has been cleared.

Wales and Sheffield United striker Evans, 23, was convicted by a jury at Caernarfon Crown Court.

Both he and Port Vale defender McDonald, also 23, had denied rape at a Premier Inn near Rhyl, Denbighshire.

The men admitted having sex with the woman on 30 May, 2011 but said it was consensual.

During the trial, the jury saw video interviews in which the woman, now 20, said she could not remember what happened and feared her drinks were spiked.

She could not remember travelling to the hotel, but woke up in a double bed.

"My clothes were scattered around on the floor," she said.

"I just didn't know how I got there, if I had gone there with anyone. I was confused and dazed."

The court heard that Evans, whose mother lives in Rhyl, had invited McDonald and others for a bank holiday night out in the seaside town on 29 May.

Because there was not enough space at Evans' mother's house, he booked McDonald into the hotel.
Clayton McDonald Defender Clayton McDonald signed for Port Vale last season

The court heard that McDonald met the woman and took her back to the hotel room, sending a text to Evans stating he had "got a bird".

During Evans' evidence, he told the jury he had gone to the hotel, let himself into McDonald's room and watched his friend and the woman having sex.

It was claimed McDonald asked if his friend could "get involved", to which the woman said yes.

The prosecution claimed that while the attack happened, Jack Higgins, an "associate" of the footballers, and Ryan Roberts, Mr Evans' brother, watched through a window.

The court heard the defendants had known each other since they were 10 years old and shared digs when they played for Manchester City's youth academy.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Tevez Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Sheffield United have finally decided to axe their infamous striker Ched Evans, who was convicted of rape and sentenced to five years imprisonment last month.

The Blades only recently suffered the heartbreak of losing on penalties in the League One play-off final, while it is a strong possibility that if their top-scorer Evans had not committed such a thoroughly vile crime and totally messed up a number of people’s lives in the process, United could well have secured an automatic promotion place.

Evans was released along with 10 other United players as the Blades began their summer clear-out.

Former Man City player Evans had also become some kind of hero for a whole load of utter morons on Facebook and Twitter, but while the player will get out of prison at some point, his victim will have to live with her trauma for the rest of her life.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Ched Evans back training with the club

Hasn't signed a contract yet but if he's kept his fitness levels up and his performance levels haven't dropped you can almost guarantee he will get a contract at Sheff Utd.

I think the club need to takeaway serious look at themselves over that one


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:38 pm 
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If a man worked in Sainsburys served his time and come out we'd expect Sainsburys to help rehabilitate him in to society.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:49 pm 
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Children don't look up to people that work in Sainsbury's though, and shelf stackers don't get idolised by thousands.

The player himself still maintains his innocence. Has anyone read much into the case? I read a bit of his website which is dedicated to clearing his name, and there does seem to be a few inconsistencies. Obviously not an unbiased source of information, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:07 pm 
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It's a pointless comparison really if you found out a convicted rapist worked in your local Sainsbury's would you shop there? Also, a football club is meant to represent the fans and city they represent so they are in a way a public figure like a musician or an MP. When that Ian Watkins guy gets out do you think he'll be welcomed back to the music industry? We've had it this week in the media with Dapper Laughs losing his TV show over some of the stuff he's said at one of his gigs.

Like anything for me if my club did this it would be enough for me to walk away and never come back there has to be some sort of moral line in football and rape is incredibly serious and for me until he manages to clear his name I wouldn't want him associated with my club.

Legally there is absolutely nothing wrong with him resuming his career and as a free man in the eye of society he should be able to do that but for fans it's a tricky situation for some that will be the final straw and they'll walk away for others they'll just get on with it and some have even supported him by singing his nameat matches and the fans seem split on it. For me I think the club are crazy to let him come back until he clears his name that should be his sole motivation if he still maintains his innocence.

Read back up the page a bit Serb you actually posted an article on this he doesn't deny having slept with her he just claims she consented to it but the article also states she doesn't know how she got to the hotel or what happened. His mate (who she originally went back with) was cleared but Evans was convicted.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Whilst I agree with what you're saying in terms of others I personally disagree.

One of my close friends done 12 yrs for manslaughter. Killed a guy in a bar fight should that be held over him for the rest of his life.

I think there needs to be some perspective too. Firstly he hasn't set out and maliciously attacked this woman. There were no signs of any struggle and no physical harm. She states she has complete memory loss of the night but the expert witness states she would have been 2.5 times over the legal driving limit and would not have memory loss. The evidence is ridiculously flimsy. The judge instructed the jury not to take in to account the woman actually had no recollection of the rape taking place.

He was convicted on the basis that he should have been of the capacity to realize she was too drunk to have sex.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:51 pm 
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https://www.crimeline.info/uploads/case ... im2559.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:48 pm 
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The evidence does seem particularly flimsy. Makes you wonder what the verdict would have been if he wasn't a famous footballer.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:04 pm 
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The evidence is pretty clear in some points though.

Evans arrived at the hotel without invite from either McDonald or the girl he blagged his way past the night porter to get in to a room where he knew his mate was with a girl having received the text message. There are only 3 people who know what happened in that room and to what level she consented to sleeping with both of them.

What is unclear is the level of intoxication she was under she clearly agreed to go back with McDonald to the hotel so you can see why he was cleared as it wasn't like he dragged her back to the hotel she made a conscious decision (under the influence of alcohol) to go back to a hotel with him.

To me it sounds like Evans took advantage of a drunk girl who woke up alone in a hotel room after they'd finished with her and her memory of what happened she claims wasn't great we've all had the alcohol blackout. Alternatively, you could say she woke up alone feeling used and decided to take revenge on Evans and McDonald for taking advantage of her.

The flimsy part of the case is she claims she doesn't remember anything past leaving that Kebab shop so how does she remember is she did or didn't give consent to Evans she was clearly drunk on the night in question the fact she can't remember either way surely leaves some doubt over the whole thing?

I think even if he wasn't a footballer if this case went to court you'd be in trouble as all the evidence indicates that he took advantage of a situation even if she did consent at the time then was to drunk to remember.

The fact is the other guy who was acquitted was also a professional footballer at the time although he wasn't as high profile as Evans.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:18 pm 
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Olympic Heptathlon Champion Jessica Ennis-Hill will ask Sheffield United to remove her name from a stand at Bramall Lane if Ched Evans is offered a contract with the club.

Evans, a convicted rapist, is to train with United after they agreed to a request from the Professional Footballers' Association – although there has been no move by the Blades to re-sign their former striker at this time.

The 25-year-old Wales international was released from jail last month after serving half of a five-year jail term imposed in April 2012 for raping a 19-year-old woman in a hotel room in Rhyl, North Wales.

The Bramall Lane stand was re-named after Ennis-Hill, a Blades fan, following her Olympic success in 2012.

In a statement, Ennis-Hill said: “I believe being a role model to young people is a huge honour and those in positions of influence in communities should respect the role they play in young people’s lives and set a good example.

“If Evans was to be re-signed by the club, it would completely contradict these beliefs".

Wales boss Chris Coleman says he is yet to discuss whether Evans will be considered for selection by his country, but expects to hold talks with the FAW.

“I know it’s somewhere in the future. The decision will have to be made,” he told Sky Sports News HQ.

“There’s not been the time to sit down and talk about it with the FAW. All we’ve done is concentrate on the job in hand and that’s picking points up, picking squads, and trying to work on things that are here and now.

“Sometime in the future, when that time is appropriate we’ll deal with it, but it’s not something I’ve talked about with them.

“It’s going to come, I know that and they know that, but that’s not now.”


Surely this is getting to the point now where Sheff Utd will say no thanks unless he clears his name with another appeal I just don't see a way back for him


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:16 pm 
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The flimsy part of the case is she claims she doesn't remember anything past leaving that Kebab shop so how does she remember is she did or didn't give consent to Evans she was clearly drunk on the night in question the fact she can't remember either way surely leaves some doubt over the whole thing?

That's my issue with it. Only three people know what happened. McDonald, Evans and the girl. More than once in that report it states an expert says she hadn't consumed enough to suffer memory blackout. Whilst everyone has their own tolerances, I find it hard to believe she remembers nothing.

Also, the fact she says she doesn't remember is surely enough for there to be reasonable doubt. I just don't see how a jury can decide he's guilty based on that evidence. There simply is no 'evidence' to base a guilty decision on as far as I can see.

Obviously I'm not a lawyer so all of the above is probably nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:48 pm 
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That's my issue with it. Only three people know what happened. McDonald, Evans and the girl. More than once in that report it states an expert says she hadn't consumed enough to suffer memory blackout. Whilst everyone has their own tolerances, I find it hard to believe she remembers nothing.

Also, the fact she says she doesn't remember is surely enough for there to be reasonable doubt. I just don't see how a jury can decide he's guilty based on that evidence. There simply is no 'evidence' to base a guilty decision on as far as I can see.

Obviously I'm not a lawyer so all of the above is probably nonsense.


Alcohol effects everyone in a different way but the witness statements and CCTV footage suggest that she was absolutely hammered as the Kebab shop owner seemed to suggest she could hardly stand up.

The fact is that 1) he's been found guilty by a jury and 2) a panel of judges have upheld his conviction when he lost his appeal so you would have to say that the evidence against him must have been pretty convincing.

There must be more to the case than what I saw when I scan read through that report his general behaviour was pretty shady anyway turning up to a hotel when he knows his mate has a girl back (I don't believe he was invited), convinced the night porter to let him in to the room by giving him a key card, asks to get involved while his mates look through the window & then leaves through an emergency exit rather than the front door.

It might be that the legal definition of rape is different to the general one we normally associate the word with which would be forcing someone in to sex what appears to have happened in this case was Evans took advantage of a girl who was in no fit state to make a conscious decision to consent. I didn't read the whole thing in detail but did McDonald back up Evans claim that she consented?

In a case like this especially when it involves alcohol there will always be a grey area because like you say only the people who were there know what happened 1 of them is defending themselves, the other is his best mate and the other was drunk so none of them are really reliable witnesses.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:46 pm 
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[quoteRichard Scudamore, the Premier League chief executive, has added to the pressure on Sheffield United over the fate of Ched Evans by saying he would not employ a convicted rapist within his organisation.

Sheffield United agreed to a request this week from the Professional Footballers’ Association to allow the striker to return to training after serving two and a half years of a five-year sentence for raping a 19-year-old woman in Rhyl.

The club has come under increasing pressure not to award Evans a new contract, with sponsors threatening to pull out if they do so and the Olympic gold medal heptathlete Jessica Ennis-Hill saying she would ask for her name to be removed from a stand at Bramall Lane.

“I am an employer. I have 100 in my organisation and I would not have someone who served time for rape. But that is easy for me to say,” Scudamore told the BBC. “On the other hand, I do believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. You might say that is hypocritical but clearly offenders do have to come back to work. But I think it would be very difficult to have that employee in our organisation.

“It is a difficult situation. He still wants to appeal. Part of rehab is remorse and contrition and that has not happened yet. It is damaging on many levels. It is damaging for Ched Evans. It is damaging for his reputation. Clearly it is an extreme case, at the very highest end of anything anyone can do.”][/quote]


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:07 am 
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Bit of over reaction here ... he made the mistake .. and from what i have heard read the evidences were not all convincing or based on circumstantial evidence ..
he is young and every one make mistakes what important is he rehab so he doesnt commit crime again ..

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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:32 am 
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Bit of over reaction here ... he made the mistake .. and from what i have heard read the evidences were not all convincing or based on circumstantial evidence ..
he is young and every one make mistakes what important is he rehab so he doesnt commit crime again ..


He refuses to accept that he made a mistake he still pleads innocence which is fair enough but he should concentrate on clearing his name.

He was in his 20's when this happened yes he's still a young man but a man who should know better than to do what he did even in his 20's which was take advantage of a drunk girl

The only case you can make for him coming back is he's served his sentence and therefore should be allowed to return to work as a free man

His crime though carries a huge social stigma


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:59 pm 
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The singer-songwriter Paul Heaton has become the latest figure associated with Sheffield United to resign his position as a result of its decision to allow the convicted rapist Ched Evans to train with the club.

The former lead singer in the Beautiful South has followed the lead of television presenters Charlie Webster and Lindsay Graham in quitting as a patron of the Sheffield United Community Foundation.

The Olympic gold medal winning heptathlete Jessica Ennis-Hill said last week she would ask for her name to be removed from the Bramall Lane stand if Evans was offered a new contract.

Heaton, a lifelong Sheffield United fan, said he wanted to “salute the bravery” of the trio in “standing up for victims of rape everywhere”.

After Ennis-Hill received rape threats and abuse on Twitter in the wake of her decision, the club issued a statement strongly condemning the trolls and said it would work with police to identify them.

Evans was released on licence having served two and a half years of a five-year sentence after being found guilty of raping a 19-year-old woman following a night out in Rhyl.

He has maintained that he is innocent, and the issue of whether Sheffield United should re-sign the player has split supporters and the wider public.

“I firmly believe that Ched Evans has the right to rebuild his career in football but rebuilding a career should not involve walking straight out of prison and into the shirt of the club he so badly let down,” said Heaton.

“I believe he needs to move away and move on, and the club itself needs to lift its reputation out of the gutter.”

The club agreed to allow Evans to train with them again at the request of the Professional Footballers’ Association, which has argued he should be allowed to resume his career.

But organisations including the End Violence Against Women Coalition have made clear their disgust at the decision, while more than 165,000 members of the public have signed a petition calling on Sheffield United chairman Kevin McCabe not to re-sign the striker.

Reports over the weekend suggested that the club had decided against offering Evans a new contract but it has yet to make its decision public.

Heaton said he planned to donate his fee for a gig at Sheffield’s City Hall later this month to Sheffield Rape Crisis Centre and thanked the foundation for its “continued hard work” in the city.

The former Housemartins member has become the fourth patron of the foundation to resign after Webster, Graham and the 1960s pop singer Dave Berry. Among the remaining patrons are the actor Sean Bean, snooker player Ding Junhui and Commonwealth Games gold medallist Nick Matthew.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:48 pm 
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It’s hard to like Ched Evans. He cheats on his girlfriend. By having sex with a young girl who has just has performed the same act with his mate while he watches. And other friends peer through the window. In the pantheon of tawdry escapades that young men with too much money engage in, it’s as tacky as it is immoral. Having spent 2 ½ years in prison after being found guilty of rape, he then refuses to apologise and makes a ham-fisted, cringe-inducing video in which his loyal girlfriend is so embarrassed she can’t look at the camera.

So far, so standard. Another hang-Ched-out-to-dry article. Never let him play football again. Anything else but not football. Because football is the moral guardian of our society. Are we all clear on that? No bad boys in football anymore or everyone resigns.

Wait. I’ve an idea. It’s radical but if you bear with me, you might agree. Let’s take a closer look at the facts. Examine Ched’s alleged crime and maybe make a merit based decision on his life time punishment.

Still with me? Good.

Ched Evans, Sheffield United and Wales striker, and his footballer friend, Clayton McDonald, went on a night out. On his way home alone, Clayton meets a girl. She had been drinking. She returns to his hotel with him, according to his uncontroverted evidence, at her request. CCTV shows both of them leaving a taxi. While she is clearly not sober, she is able to walk in high heels and lift a pizza box off the ground.

In the meantime, McDonald has texted Evans to say he is with a girl and the clear implication is that Evans should join him. He duly does this and they both have sex with her. McDonald leaves by the front door and Evans by the fire exit, at different times. Both were present, however, while the other was having sex. Friends of theirs attempted to watch through the window.

She wakes the next morning and says she remembers nothing. She is missing her handbag (which she left outside a takeaway) and decides later to report this to the police. She claims not to recall any sex or even meeting McDonald. By tracing the players through the room booking and CCTV, both McDonald and Evans are interviewed and admit to having sex with her. There is no DNA evidence and there is no evidence of any force.

After making the admissions of having sex with her, both have effectively ensured a criminal investigation. Prior to this, an allegation of rape wasn’t even contemplated due to her lack of recall.

Both men were tried and bizarrely, Evans was convicted while McDonald was acquitted.

Let’s examine this for a minute. There are three people in the room. Two say the sex with both men was consensual and that she was not too drunk to consent. The other says she remembers absolutely nothing. The only other person with any small contribution to make as to what occurred in the room is the night porter who hears noises coming from the room of a sexual nature, the voices being both male and female. There is no suggestion of coercion or reluctance.

The prosecution case is that she was too drunk to consent. Yet the jury acquit McDonald and convict Evans despite the fact that the two acts occur within a matter of minutes of one another. There is no evidence of her having had any drink between meeting McDonald and the two sexual acts.

Presumably, the jury thinking is that she met McDonald and offered to go back to his hotel so this was a form of consent. If so, it makes no sense. She says she doesn’t recall meeting him and she had no more to drink after this. If anything, presumably the passage of time would have sobered her up rather than making her more intoxicated.

Most importantly, there isn’t a shred of independent evidence to suggest that she was too drunk to consent at the moment that she had sex with either man. Indeed, there is no evidence at all as even she doesn’t know what state of intoxication she was in.

None of this should be taken to suggest that the girl in question has done anything wrong. She hasn’t. The reality is that this is a scene that is played out in every town in England, and no doubt Ireland, every weekend. Anyone who believes that some young adults in their late teens or 20s are not engaging in sexual acts with multiple partners is either incredibly naïve or utterly deluded.

Clearly, it is a minority pursuit but it happens and it happens regularly. Many of these participants are drunk. The degree of intoxication no doubt varies but it leads us to the key question: what is too drunk to consent? How does a man determine whether or not a potential partner falls into this category? The facetious answer might be a test to walk in a straight line or even a breathalyser. Of course, these are not realistic but it helps to consider the criteria when dealing with this very sensitive and nuanced legal point.

Is it a subjective test? In other words, if she says I don’t remember anything, is that enough? Clearly that can’t be right, so where does this begin and end?

There is little point in trying to dissect the legal niceties of this very complex issue but suffice to say that Ched Evans has a very arguable case that he is the victim of a miscarriage of justice. If having sex with a drunk woman is rape then thousands of men are guilty of rape every day. The simple point is that degrees of intoxication are a very difficult concept for young men to grapple with when they themselves have had plenty to drink.

So, let’s get to the point, should Ched Evans be allowed back in football? Clearly, if he has been a victim of miscarriage of justice then he should.

However, let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that he is guilty and knew he was having sex with a woman that was too drunk to consent. In those circumstances, he has deservedly received a five year sentence and the consequences that flow from a conviction for a sexual offence. Rape is a horrific crime which, upon rightful conviction, should always be punished by a custodial sentence.

The difficult element of this discussion, though, is the part about the scale of the crime. There are people who will say rape is rape and degrees shouldn’t come into it but in sentencing these issues matter. This crime, as alleged, was at the bottom end. There was no violence and thankfully the victim has no recollection of it. This, I hasten to add, does not make it right, or anything close to it, but it is nonetheless a mitigating factor.

Ched Evans served half of his sentence and will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life.

He has most likely missed out on the best part of his career and will forever be vilified for the alleged crime. Football is a popular pastime but the idea that all of its participants should be candidates for beatification is ridiculous.

We all recall the public opprobrium that greeted the return to football of convicted felons, Lee Hughes and Luke McCormick? Don’t we?

Maybe not. For those who didn’t hear the muted, almost silent response to the rehabilitation of these two killers into football, here’s a reminder. Both Hughes and McCormick were found guilty of dangerous driving causing death. In the case of the McCormick, he was drunk and killed two children.

When they had served their sentences, they both returned to football at Football League clubs. McCormick is currently captain of Plymouth Argyle. Hughes played league football until the age of 37 and is still playing in the Conference.

While there may have been some discussion about the return of these players to football, I can recall no serious suggestion that they should not be signed by any club.

Which is as it should be. They, like Evans, have served their time. Their crimes, which seem undisputed unlike Evans, were arguably worse but either way, they deserve a second chance at life.

Perhaps the difference between them and Evans is that they showed remorse and apologised for their actions. But how can Evans apologise? He is convinced, and has a good argument, that he is not guilty of rape. If he apologised, then he is admitting a crime he feels he didn’t commit. Who would do that?

There are certain jobs to which you cannot return as a convicted felon but there is always a reason. The argument that a League One footballer is a role model and therefore his career must end is particularly specious.

Would this happen in the League of Ireland? Leaving aside the conclusion that a set of facts similar to the Evans case would never the see the light of day in an Irish courtroom, it’s hard to see how the sanctimony which has pervaded the discussion in the English media would be tolerated in this jurisdiction.

From Jessica Ennis-Hill to Charlie Webster and pretty much every media commentator who has waded into this mire, the horses most of these pundits have mounted are so high, they’ll need a parachute to get down. When sanctimony takes over, there is rarely any real room for serious debate.

It now appears that Sheffield United have been swayed by the verdict of the court of public opinion. Ched Evans is toxic, don’t touch him with a bargepole.

From a media and marketing point of view, that’s probably right. And money always talks. But Ched Evans has served his time, whether he is innocent or guilty. He puts the ball in the net so eventually someone will take a chance on him.

In the meantime, however, he continues to serve his sentence. Those who know little about his case will continue to vilify him while ignoring the fact that if it was their son, brother, friend or relative in the same position, they would fight tooth and nail to defend his name.

It’s not easy to muster up too much sympathy for Evans but there is surely nothing worse than being accused of a crime which you genuinely believe you didn’t commit.

The argument against that is that a jury convicted him of the crime. That’s right. And the same applied to the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six. They got no public sympathy either.

Maybe he is guilty or perhaps he’s innocent, none of us knows for sure. Surely, either way, he deserves a chance at redemption. Don’t we all?

Stuart Gilhooly is the solicitor to the PFA Ireland. He is also a journalist and has recently been shortlisted, for the fifth year in succession, a Journalist of the Year at the Irish Magazine Awards.


An alternative view

To be clear though both Hughes & McCormack were heavily vilified when they returned to the game

However, it could be argued that both players had to step down a few levels to come back.


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 Post subject: Re: Sheffield (Don't Mention Ched Evans Or Kenny) United
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:53 am 
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Could I have a link to that article JSP? Sums up a lot of my thoughts want to forward it to a friend in in a long going argument with.

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